Ed McLaughlin, President & CTO, Mastercard

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Welcome to CIO Leadership Live.
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Lee Rennick, Executive Director,
CIO Communities for CIO.com
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I'm very excited to introduce
and welcome Ed McLaughlin,
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President and Chief Technology
Officer, Mastercard.
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Ed, please introduce yourself and tell us
a little bit about your current role.
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Certainly. Hello Lee, so good to see you.
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So I run technology for Mastercard
and it probably the two favorite things
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I have about my job is it single
running day, the global network
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security, the transactional systems,
all the other services
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we provide to the customer.
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Really what what Mastercard
does as a technology company.
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But the other side is what we become
is what we built.
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So we also have all the tech modernization
and the things that we're doing
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to advance the state of the art.
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So it's a great job where every day
you make sure all the things that need to
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happen are happening
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while you're still planning on what
we build and what we're going to become.
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And I love this dialog
about talking about Mastercard
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as being a technology company,
so I'm really interested
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in getting into some of the talks topics
we'll be talking about today, Ed.
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And I appreciate you joining us very,
very much.
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We've really created this series
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to support the technology leader
in their own tech and career journey.
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So the first question and I asked this
to everybody I'm interviewing,
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can you please tell us a little bit
about your own career path
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and maybe provide some insights
or tips on that road path?
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Are there any lessons learned
that you'd like to share?
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I was talking to my daughter
about this recently,
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and when I left university,
I went straight into programing
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because I thought at the time
I could have a challenging
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and rewarding career
and not have to talk to anybody.
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So my first advice is whatever
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you think's going to happen in your career
is'nt pretty much what's going to happen.
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But I've always been at this intersection
of technology
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and commerce, technology and finance,
and my early career had a set of start up
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organizations
that were in electronic data interchange.
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We had a data modeling company
that we took public
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at a first wave Internet payments
business, and I think all of those things
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came together and led me to Mastercard,
where I was privileged to be part
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of that management team that came in as
Mastercard was getting ready for our IPO.
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We originally started as a association,
as a service provider
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to the banks that owned us.
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And in 2006 we went public as a company.
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It's just been an amazing story
since then.
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And I think like many technology
leaders, you're constantly bringing
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those experiences
you've had together for what happens next.
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And you know, all the work we did
to enable things like digital and mobile,
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mobile payments,
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all the things we've continued to do
to extend the network, it's really based
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on that skills and understanding
you build across your career.
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Well, I appreciate you sharing that.
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And you know, obviously
you've worked in a sector
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that's had to pivot dramatically
over the last few years as well, too.
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And obviously, as you mentioned,
first being a service provider,
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then to being a public company,
I mean, that's a huge transition.
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So I'm really looking forward
to having some of those discussions.
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And I want to segue
into the next question,
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which is to talk about Mastercard
and the global reach of the company.
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You know, I met I know many CIOs,
and I've just been at two conferences, one
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in the UK and one in Canada,
and we've been talking
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a lot about data, data
sovereignty, cyber cybersecurity,
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but also really creating that meaningful
product for the customer around the globe.
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So could you talk a little bit
about your strategies as a business leader
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around building that global organization
for business and customer engagement?
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Many things are so important.
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First,
you have to be where your customers are.
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You have to reflect and understand
your customers, and it's always a risk
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that you're doing really well
in one corner of the world
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and you think all of those patterns
apply somewhere else in the world.
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So I really think of our technology
and in two ways
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there's certain elements of technology
which are truly transcendent,
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a high speed you know, incredibly reliable
backbone to our network.
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You know, the ways that the transactions
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and messages flow
because they all have to work together.
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So you make certain investments
to make sure those transcendent things or
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those overall things are globally
scalable and unbelievably good.
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But then you have to recognize
the only things that are meaningful for
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people are how it works in their life,
in their neighborhood, what's for them.
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So if you can marry those globally
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scaled capabilities
that everyone wants and needs
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and make it profoundly meaningful
for merchants running their business
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in that neighborhood, for consumers
living their daily lives,
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for financial institutions
with different needs around the world,
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so that that 16 digit Mastercard number
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I have works exactly as well as Manhattan
as a 16
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digit Mastercard number
that we're providing
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to customer and financial inclusion, who's
never been part of the financial system
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as we help bring that online.
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So that's really how we balance it.
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So we have tech hubs around the world
where we have people who are working
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in the markets with the technologies
in which the customers there
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and we connect them
or knit them together on a global basis.
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I think it's also important
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because, you know, proudly
what we do is really important.
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We're regtech. So we work in
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210 different countries
and regulatory domiciles.
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We have 150 different currencies
that we have to transact in and enable
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and those requirements in
and how those requirements are changing
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and how that impacts
the overall technology footprint we have.
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It's one of the biggest topics
of our time.
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It must be incredible,
just as you describe it.
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I mean, having been at a conference
in the UK
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and talking to some of the CIOs
and leaders there from global companies,
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they were talking about how they're
dealing with their data in the cloud
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and you know, how
they're almost having not to silo it,
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but have a global plan,
but then make sure their data isn't in
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one country in the cloud the right way
and it serves the customer in the company.
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So it just must be so much more amplified
in the business that you're in.
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Well, there's a lot of things
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we've been thinking about that,
and you're exactly right.
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We have regulatory obligations.
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You have the tech that new technologies
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that you want to be able
to take advantage of
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consumers' demands are shifting entirely
as we're replatforming our lives
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into this digital physical convergence,
which is unlike anything
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that we've had before.
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So a couple of big parameters
we put around this.
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One of
which is you talk about about cloud.
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We had to take a view that
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we're not quite sure where we're going
to be allowed to run. In some countries
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regulators said you had to run
in equipment you fully controlled
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because of national critical infrastructure.
In others
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we can take advantage of third party
or public cloud compute.
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And it's not too hard to see
in the future
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certain markets may say you have to run
in a given cloud environment.
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So when we looked at that,
you take a step back
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and say you want to have really well
behaved applications.
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So the view we took is
let's have a global network fabric
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where our private cloud
and our public cloud are peered entities
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within it and we can choose
where to deploy our applications.
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It's a lot harder
from an engineering standpoint,
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but if you get that right from the
beginning, you're ready for those things
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you don't know quite
what's going to happen
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but have to be able to anticipate now.
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And the second big trend we're seeing
is not only
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where you have to operate and run
like where you put your compute,
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data and the rules around data
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have become such a topic of concern
and opportunity.
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And we'll I'm sure
we'll get to conversations around AI
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and all the amazing benefits
you can get from your data.
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But that's the other thing is our ability
to say exactly what data we're getting.
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Making sure that data enters our network
inside the regulatory domicile
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that it belongs to and then knowing
where we're processing it.
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These are really hard problems
and having that understanding,
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so the long term goal
of having a global network
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with an intelligent edge
that meets our customers
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exactly where they're doing business
and then being able to know where
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within that we can put servicing, compute
and persistence.
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It's the foundational architectures
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you put in place today, and then we'll see
how that plays out over time.
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But the idea of being able to control
where, what
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and how you're using data in a way
we've never had to before,
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I guess is going to be the story
for the next decade.
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Thank you so much for sharing that.
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I mean, I'm just my head is going.
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Yes, no, I'm just listening along
and just thinking about the complexity
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of what you have to deal with.
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And we didn't plan for this
quite that question.
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But it must be just so valuable to
for your clients,
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because I'm sure as you're learning
and we just had a panel last week
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at a conference with the service
provider and Cloud and, you know,
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they're talking about
how they're really working
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with their clients
and to help understand this.
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So it sounds like you probably have
that same thing in place.
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And, you know, I'm just going to pop over
to the next question here because
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during the pandemic, of course, you know,
I'm sure you had to pivot and design,
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you know, different programs
that you just spoke
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about around cloud and really
to support the changing digital economy.
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I spoke to a CIO here in Canada
about his brand, and he said,
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you know, the day
after they closed their bricks and mortar
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stores, their online ordering
increased by 2,400% every day, every day.
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And I was like,
oh my gosh, how did you manage that?
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So I would imagine with Mastercard
that just multiplied up
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with all the people in the vendors
using your card.
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So you talked a little bit
about that, right,
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already running your cloud solutions,
but just how you manage that as a leader.
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And then obviously you touched on as well
that global financial inclusion
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globally that you're working on.
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So I would love you to talk a little bit
about both of those things.
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Let me start particularly
because this is a leadership series
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and the way we dealt with the pandemic, it started with,
and all came down to our people.
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And one of the challenges
were the blessings and the burdens
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of being a Mastercard is we do
run national critical infrastructure.
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So we had no opportunity to shut down.
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We had to throw switches and pull cables
and you know a letter from the Treasury Department
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saying whatever
you have to do to stay open, stay open.
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So we had special considerations
for how we had to operate through,
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which really recquired a lot of,
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let's say, risk and sacrifice
on behalf of our staff
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to come in during that time,
which was such great uncertainty. And
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one story I have
to tell because we all talk about sense
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of purpose, sense of mission,
it's important for our organization.
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But when you realize we've got over
3 billion accounts on our network
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that people need to buy medicine
to get the food for their kids
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to do what they have
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to do for businesses to stay in business,
we need to be there for them.
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So one of the things we did is
we weren't sure
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if we had challenges in our operations
or in our control center.
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So we took everyone who had worked
those jobs within the last three years
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and we asked them to come in
and work a shift.
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So if we needed them, almost like a
reserve, you'd call them up and come in
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and every person said yes.
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So the way we were able to come through it
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so well really did come down to that
sense of purpose, mission and dedication,
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because people understand
their jobs are important.
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And that's exactly what we saw.
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We you know,
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people always talk about, you know,
massive acceleration is coming forward.
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We were seeing a long term shift
of a couple percentage
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points a year from the physical world
to the digital world.
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When the first quarter of full pandemic
lockdowns globally happened,
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we had that crossover
where we had more digital transactions
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than you would see in the physical world.
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And that behavior has persisted.
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So it was a massive acceleration
of the business.
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So that's where all those things, you know,
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I don't think exactly
had global pandemic in their plans,
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but the ability to say
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how much reserve capacity
you had, how much of a burst can you have,
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how can you expand what you do
if there's unintended consequences?
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All of that planning came to the fore.
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And for us, when you move from a digital
to a physical world,
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you know, the iconic Christmas sale
where the lines around the corner.
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Yeah, I always say in the digital world
they all hit us at once and nobody's
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queuing up. It's all coming at you.
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So we did a lot of work to add capacity
to anticipate
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and stay ahead of that demand.
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But I really do say,
and I always say for anything you do
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as a technology strategy,
it really is coming down
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to a people strategy
and their commitment and dedication.
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And I think that's what
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for many organizations
I've talked to so many organizations,
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that's what really shone through that
very, very difficult time for all of us.
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I really appreciate you sharing that.
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That must have just been such
an intense time, but tough to you know, so
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many CIOs right now are talking about
focusing on people and their people,
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even when it comes to cloud
and everything.
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The way we manage data,
the way we manage these transactions.
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But you know, what a phenomenal strategy
to have
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and to have that kind of commitment
from your people.
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And just to talk
about the volume of people.
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Yes. That needed stuff from medicine
to, you know, farm supplies
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or whatever drives them in
the midst of that need is truly inspiring.
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And I and I really appreciate you
sharing sharing that with me.
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And that was that was amazing.
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So I talked to a lot
of CIOs around the globe and
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there's been a
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trend in the last
like little bit around the CIO
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being both the technology leader
and the business leader.
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So I had the CIO of the National Bank of
Canada Julie Levesque
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talk about that
and say that, you know, the CIO must be
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bilingual.
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So and she was like
both business and technology.
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And if you don't have business,
go get a business degree.
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I had a CIO in the UK talk about the CIO
being orchestrating the business.
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So, you know, basically
being like the conductor and, you know,
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bringing business together
and understanding
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all those pieces like you would
in an orchestra.
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So I wanted to talk about that.
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From the standpoint of your role,
you just talked about some major, major
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implementation of tech and people
and bringing that together.
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But I would love to learn your role
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as a business leader and how you,
you know, build that alongside technology.
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Well, it's funny, a while ago
we had a kind of
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legendary CEO who loved to say
how Mastercard was a technology company.
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And I always say,
well, Mastercard is a technology company,
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and we run technology
by the transitive property of equality.
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Therefore, we're running the company.
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Which is also how you learn formal logic
only gets you so far in life.
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But I think there is a real truth to that,
where most companies,
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I would say, used to have products
that were supported by technology.
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It was more of a back office.
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And I think
the reason why so many people are saying
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actually it is a technology
company is with this physical digital
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convergence,
with this digitization of everything.
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Now our products, our services,
our delivery channel to our customers
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is through technology.
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So it becomes important in a very, very
different way than it ever was before.
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So not only is digital, the new medium
by which I think almost all of us
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do business,
I think technology is the silver bullet.
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That's where this applied research
can massively transform and accelerate
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what we're doing through data,
through processing, through analytics.
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So you've gone from being,
you know, a cost center
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to the primary asset of the organization.
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Unfortunately,
it doesn't mean you get to spend more, but
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you do think about your assets differently
than how you think about cost centers.
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So I think our job,
our obligation to the company is
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because we're the folks
who actually understand how it works.
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The only way you can truly have
a strategy, the only way you can map out
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the way forward in this progressively
digitizing world, is if you have that deep
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and profound understanding both of what
the business is trying to accomplish
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and the assets you actually have,
how the technology actually works.
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And when things get off the whiteboard
and somebody's got to do something,
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that's us.
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And I see so many times
that the ability to intervene or inform
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from an engineering standpoint
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how it can lead to the actual success of
the business outcomes we're looking for.
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So I love the bilingual line
and I always say
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it's like our role and responsibility
300
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to be able to think left brain, right
brain or on both sides of the equation.
301
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It's really no other job in the business
that does that.
302
00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:55,400
Yeah, no, I think that that is so true
and certainly I'm hearing it from,
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from anybody I interview now
that that business aspect is so connected
304
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and then that pivot from companies
now to being tech companies
305
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and really understanding what drives
the technology innovation,
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the implementation, you have a lot of CIOs
talking about, you know, the customer.
307
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I'm sure it is in your
308
00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,080
what is in your space,
because we talked about this already,
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the customer,
the end user being the most important
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and almost working from that space,
coming backwards
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to looking at
how the technology can implement.
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About a
313
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month ago, I was very honored to interview
Manfred
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Boudreaux-Dehmer,
who's the first inaugural CIO at NATO.
315
00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,840
And, you know,
he talked about being a business leader
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prior to coming into this role
317
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and then coming into this role
and being a business leader,
318
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but also having to work with 31,
you know, soon
319
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soon to be 32 countries
around the world on a consensus basis.
320
00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:43,800
And having learnings from
321
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that about looking at your North Star
as your guiding principle.
322
00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,320
But understand owning business
so dramatically,
323
00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:53,320
so you know how to negotiate
and navigate those circumstances.
324
00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:57,080
I can I can hardly imagine having 31 now
32 different
325
00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:01,080
constituencies under such
an incredible set of external pressures.
326
00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:05,440
If you, you know,
and everything that NATO is dealing with.
327
00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:08,160
But I think that is something
we learn across our careers and something
328
00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:13,120
I probably got wrong early, where for all
of the technical engineering,
329
00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:16,440
social engineering
is an equally important part of success.
330
00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:20,520
And if you understand it,
but you can't explain it,
331
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the right things aren't going to happen.
332
00:17:22,120 --> 00:17:26,200
And if you can understand, you know,
so often we see it that the people asking
333
00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:29,320
the question don't
understand the question, and the people
334
00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,320
who are answering the question
don't understand what they're asking.
335
00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,280
And it is that translation
that becomes so essential.
336
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I really appreciate you describing that.
337
00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:38,840
Yeah, I agree.
338
00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,880
Social engineering
and that is a great, good big part of
339
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I think these roles nowadays
anybody's role really.
340
00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:49,600
So now I want to pop over
and talk about innovation again.
341
00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,960
We've been talking a lot this year
about GenAI and LLMs
342
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and how prevalent they are in discussion,
so I'd love to just have you share
343
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your views on GenAI
and other LLMs and perhaps
344
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some of the ways
you're looking at deploying
345
00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:04,680
or maybe what you're seeing in market
from from other other people, other CIOs,
346
00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:06,880
people who are talking about it.
347
00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:07,680
Well, I do have
348
00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:11,760
I do feel compelled to repeat my
my comment from the CIO conference
349
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that you just had that I think
one of the greatest things about GenAI
350
00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:18,520
and LLMs, is we got to stop talking
about the metaverse, right?
351
00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:20,760
We all live through these cycles
where there's something
352
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profoundly important is changing.
353
00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:26,760
It captures popular imagination
and it's sorting out both from
354
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what is just the undifferentiated hype,
from profoundly meaningful
355
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and actually really,
really cool capabilities
356
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that are finally blossoming
and coming to the core.
357
00:18:36,120 --> 00:18:38,840
Every CIO on
this call has been through cycles of AI.
358
00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:42,520
You know, I'll go back to
when we were seeing the amazing ability
359
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of the machine learning back propagation
and TensorFlow and things of that early
360
00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:49,600
earlier iterations
when you could move from rules
361
00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:54,120
based systems to neural network systems
and things like that. So
362
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the one thing I remind people, we're been
applying AI in our network for years.
363
00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:02,360
One of my
favorite platforms is engineering marvel
364
00:19:02,360 --> 00:19:06,520
we have, which is our decision
management platform, which uses
365
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a rules parameter and 13 different
366
00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:13,240
AI engines and techniques to find fraud
in the systems to fight fraud.
367
00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:17,240
And this year we'll stop over $10 billion
worth of fraud,
368
00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,240
from coming through the system
that we couldn't have before.
369
00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:21,960
But when you talk about
understanding the problem
370
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or understanding their customers'
objectives,
371
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we probably start by saying
how do we stop fraud?
372
00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:28,320
What we found is the biggest benefit
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we could have
is by letting good transactions through.
374
00:19:32,360 --> 00:19:35,760
So we started applying
a lot of the powerful AI techniques.
375
00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:40,680
We stopped three times more fraud,
but removed six times the false positives,
376
00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:43,200
which is all of us
trying to do something legitimately
377
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,520
and having a much better experience
around that.
378
00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:48,960
So it's already had a massive boon
to our business.
379
00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:53,160
So when something like GenAI happens,
every CIO gets all these proposals
380
00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:55,800
where people are trying to figure out
what they could use it for.
381
00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:57,640
I was joking maybe a decade ago.
382
00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:00,680
Every proposal
I got was on the blockchain.
383
00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:03,320
I was like, why wouldn't a database work
better?
384
00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:04,880
Yeah,
but this is on the blockchain, right?
385
00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:06,280
I think the same thing.
386
00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:09,640
So avoid that temptation to like,
you know, pound screws in
387
00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:14,520
with very expensive socket wrenches
and ask yourself, what's the ten x factor?
388
00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:16,720
What's the thing that we could never do
before?
389
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,240
What's the hard problem
we've been trying to solve.
390
00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:21,480
Suddenly we might have a way to go after.
391
00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:25,200
So some things I'm really enthusiastic
about are things like code, assist and
392
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,920
developer productivity,
and we're seeing some good things there.
393
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,840
The way you can deal
with complex amounts of unstructured data
394
00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:36,880
and information like for customer support
or other things like that.
395
00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:39,360
There's
a lot of complexities to our network.
396
00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:43,560
So helping people understand and navigate
that, we see real, real value there.
397
00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,880
So what we're looking at is
what are the hard problems
398
00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:53,440
we've always had, that these particular
techniques can bring most value to
399
00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,520
and then layer on top of that
and apply for that.
400
00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:58,440
And like everyone else,
401
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:02,240
we're taking things like provenance
of data very, very seriously.
402
00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:04,880
You know, what was the
what are the models trained on?
403
00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,040
Do we layer over with our own information?
404
00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:10,600
How do you get the right
foundational models around that?
405
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:13,960
So with a very clear eyed view
406
00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,520
of how to manage the inputs
and outputs of the systems, we think it's
407
00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:23,120
going to have a very, very important
impact on all businesses. Not as something
408
00:21:23,120 --> 00:21:27,280
which replaces everything else,
but is another amazing tool,
409
00:21:27,360 --> 00:21:30,280
we have to solve hard problems
that we couldn't have before,
410
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:31,920
and that's how I really see it fitting in.
411
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:33,520
I love that answer.
Thank you so much for that.
412
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:33,760
And I
413
00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:34,560
and I think you know,
414
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:38,040
what I'm hearing from many tech leaders
as well is what you just said,
415
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,080
Not as many, not as many as I would think.
416
00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:41,040
But that idea that you've
417
00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:44,240
already been working in this space,
you've already been working around
418
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:45,280
machine learning,
419
00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,280
and now you're building on to that
just to create better outcomes,
420
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,480
but you're doing it
in a way that's controlled.
421
00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,880
And you know, you look at the ways
you can improve some of your services
422
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,920
and how that will work.
So really fantastic.
423
00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:57,480
You know another thought on that.
424
00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,240
And I just wanted to get
425
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,840
because it always comes back to the people
we all know right?
426
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:03,960
Tech doesn't do anything. People do it.
427
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,760
And one thing which is interesting to me
and there's some great work coming out
428
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:11,080
of like University of Washington
on this and human computer interactions
429
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,200
because I think we've at least
I took a simpler view
430
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:18,600
early on that this was just something
that augmented current jobs.
431
00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:19,920
Not as much as how
432
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,840
profoundly it can change the job
and if you think about a magazine,
433
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:28,560
right, the job of being an editor
or a fact checker is a lot different
434
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:34,120
from being the author and, you know,
writers notoriously make lousy editors.
435
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,640
So when we think about these
powerful new techniques,
436
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:38,520
I think we have to think about not so much
is it
437
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:42,240
augmenting current work,
but how does the work change now?
438
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:46,320
I absolutely do not believe
in a dystopian sort of jobless future.
439
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:48,120
I think every CIO will say
440
00:22:48,120 --> 00:22:51,960
my lists have lists of all the stuff
I wish we could get to.
441
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:52,840
So I think it's something
442
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:56,520
that we can aid and accelerate,
but we have to keep a real eye on
443
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:57,720
how people are interacting
444
00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:01,480
with this tools and how it will actually
change the types of jobs they're on.
445
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,080
Because that awesome engineer
who can never do a code review
446
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:08,440
because they just rewrite and everything
probably won't benefit it as much.
447
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:09,680
Interesting.
448
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:13,280
I thank you for adding that on and
I really thank you for joining us today.
449
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:15,440
This has been
an really informative interview.
450
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,440
I hope we can pick up in 2024
and do another one.
451
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:20,880
Thanks so much for joining me today, Ed.
452
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:22,480
Well,
thank you. It's been a real pleasure.
453
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:24,520
I certainly hope to see you
soon. Take care.
454
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:25,080
Thank you.
455
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:25,880
And if you want to
456
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,640
learn more about this interview
or others, please visit us at cio.com.
457
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:30,200
Thanks again.